Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk. Alcuin of Zarkanya. He was proud , however, though not nearly so much at first as later. Basically, they were to offset his evil influence in Middle-earth: separating Elves from Men, and forcing creatures to do his wicked will. Silmarillion says bolding and square brackets mine , …Mithrandir … doubted the darkness in Mirkwood , for though many deemed that it was … the Ringwraiths , he feared that it was … Sauron …; and he went to Dol Guldur , and [Sauron] fled….
Galadriel … had wished that Mithrandir should be the Lead of the Council, and Saruman begrudged them that, for his pride and desire of mastery was grown great; but Mithrandir refused the office, since he would have no ties and no allegiance, save to those who sent him [i. But Saruman now began to study the lore of the Rings of Power , their making and their history.
It is perilous to study too deeply the arts of the Enemy, for good or for ill. How far back his treachery goes, who can guess? Once I do not doubt that he was the friend of Rohan…. Last edited: May 11, It was the study of the Black Arts that played a crucial part in Saruman 's downfall, I am sure. If you trifle with evil even a little, you end up embracing it.
It really sounds like Saruman never achieved any real good in the two thousand years he was on Middle-Earth. It seems short-sighted on the part of Manwe to send such a proud and self-centred Maia to be one of the Istari. Did Saruman the White ever achieve any good in Middle-Earth or would it have been better if he never left Valinor. Perhaps the second, Odin. Interstingly enough, Sauron was also a Maia of Aule, so it may be argued that it would be futile to pit him against Sauron, the mightiest of the Maiar , at least of the same order.
And no doubt he did. Very different from old Gandalf. I wonder if his fame was not all along mainly due to his cleverness in settling at Isengard. His knowledge was deep, his thought was subtle, and his hands marvelously skilled; and he had a power over the minds of others. Matthew Bailey New Member. A couple of points on this thread: 1 What is mean by "Fallen?
Fallen can also mean "Corrupted. His goals had not changed, just the means. And in Middle-earth , Intentions and Methods mean an awful lot. To that end, Saruman was still likely "Fallen" long, long before he openly betrayed the rest of the Free Peoples of Middle-earth. And while Fallen he was still working to free Middle-earth from the influence of Sauron, and to right the Wrongs done to the world by Sauron.
It is just that his heart had been corrupted by the sin of Pride, and thus he erred in his judgment of the proper courses to take. But as I pointed out above, it would have taken Saruman a long time to both create his breed of Uruk-Hai , and then to breed 10, of them.
Thus he had to have Fallen quite low by at least years prior to the events of The Hobbit. That means that Tolkien, when he says "of old" he is talking about from the time of Sauron's corruption by Morgoth.
That itself means that Saruman already had some measure of "corruption" existing even before he entered Middle-earth, manifested as his Pride. Saruman likely represents, to Tolkien, the sin of Pride, and how Saruman fell not to Sauron, but to his own Pride. Last edited: Jun 26, Matthew Bailey said:. Obsession is one of the themes Tolkien returns to again-and-again as a form of "corruption.
Both represented, to Tolkien, a conceit of Modernity, and the manifestation of a particularly dangerous Christian Ideology, that "Pure Reason" leads to Sin. It is too complex an issue to do any justice to here.
But to Tolkien this was something Tolkien saw in people who proposed things that sounded perfectly reasonable, yet ran completely counter to his conception of "Good.
I completely understand Tolkien's views on this subject, as being a Scientist I see people every day pervert the Sciences, Reason, and Logic in order to advance an agenda that runs completely counter to everything we know, and which will come to no good. But the discovery of their errors is itself revealed by the Sciences, Reason, and Logic.
But within Middle-earth Saruman and Melkor both represent the manifestation of Evil through what is seemingly Reasonable and Just.
Thus, they have perverted the gifts they have of being able to explain What Is in a way that everyone could understand into a corruption that instead works to manipulate and deceive others to convince those others that what they Melkor and Saruman want is actually what is "Reasonable" and "Just. As I see people every day take the Gifts they have, of Intelligence, or Loyalty, or the Arts, and corrupt them to advance causes that only harm Humanity and the World as a whole.
And just like Saruman, these people have allowed themselves to be deceived by their own words. For whatever reason, obsession has led them to seek any justification to maintain that obsession.
This is one of the things that creates such a fascinating universe in Middle-earth. That Tolkien was able to create such clear examples of how what Christianity calls "Sins" leads to harm, that it is obvious even to the non-religious how these Sins can lead to failure, and harm even when intentions are good , even if Good and Evil are not the same sort of tangible things in our universe that they are in Middle-earth.
Another interesting thread, worthy of revival. Alcuin said:. Last edited: Sep 11, You must log in or register to reply here. The Incarnation of God is an infinitely greater thing than anything I would dare to write. Here I am only concerned with Death as part of the nature, physical and spiritual, of Man, and with Hope without guarantees. Hence, on this occasion, at least, Tolkien suggests that Saruman fell to a weakness within himself, an impatience that grew into a desire to see his own will take effect through self-justified actions.
Too long he had studied the ways of Sauron in hope to defeat him, and now he envied him as a rival rather than hated his works. Therefore he was willing to play with peril and let Sauron be for a time, hoping by his craft to forestall both his friends and the Enemy, when the Ring should appear. He becomes a traitor to the Council. His spies report that the Shire is being closely guarded by the Rangers. But could the One Ring have influenced Saruman? The Ring was trying to get back to its master.
It could make no further use of him: he was too small and mean; and as long as it stayed with him he would never leave his deep pool again. So now, when its master was awake once more and sending out his dark thought from Mirkwood, it abandoned Gollum. Only to be picked up by the most unlikely person imaginable: Bilbo from the Shire! The Ring seems to be only passively receiving a call from Sauron, but there is another passage where it is shown to be able to call evil to itself.
But he was mistaken. There was not only cunning in the attack, but fierce and relentless hatred. Prior to the publication of The Silmarillion, Sauron's origins and true identity were unclear to those without full access to Tolkien's notes. Unfinished Tales explains that Radagast, like the other Wizards, came from Valinor around the year of the Third Age of Middle-earth and was one of the angelic Maiar. His original name was Aiwendil, meaning bird-friend in Tolkien's invented language of Quenya.
Sauron's desire for perfection and orderliness became a loophole that Morgoth used to lure him to evil. From the beginning, Sauron had no desire to destroy people like Morgoth, but he would have wanted to have so much power like him. He also lost his physical form and from then on , Sauron manifested as an Eye. After losing the One Ring, Sauron's physical body was destroyed as his power stemmed from the ring.
No, Gimli was not the last of his dwarven race. Then, after the events of the Lord of the Rings, Gimli established a new kingdom in the fourth age, and become the Lord of Glittering Caves or Aglarond.
He eventually decided that he would use Radagast as the means of getting Gandalf to Isengard. Tolkien initially called him "Radagast the Grey", but in pencil he changed this to " Brown " and subsequently Saruman refers to him as "Radagast the Brown". As one of the Maiar he is an immortal spirit , but being in a physical body on Middle-earth, he can be killed in battle, as he is by the Balrog from Moria. He is sent back to Middle-earth to complete his mission, now as Gandalf the White and leader of the Istari.
From putting Saruman in his place to playing the part of the guiding hand in the war against Sauron, Gandalf the White ends up proving to be the most powerful wizard in all of Middle-earth history.
For Gandalf, his main powers seem to be those over light and illumination. Even if Gandalf had more traditional fantasy powers, he would not be able to constantly cast spells. As shown with Saruman, using magic is very taxing and expends great energy, so it cannot be done freely. She was brave, fierce, and a protective leader of the guard.
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